PELOSI LIED - THE EVIDENCE
There may be some who believe that there is not evidence in the memo concerning the September 2002 briefing that was given to Nancy Pelosi and Porter Goss that waterboarding was discussed in the briefing. Above is taken from the memo which clearly states who was present for the briefing and also what was discussed including, "a description of the type of EIT's,(Enhanced Interrogation Techniques), that HAD been employed."
The word ,"description," proves that the type of techniques used was stated and the word, "had," also clearly indicates that the techniques were already in use. As was mentioned in the preceding post waterboarding had already been used on Abu Zubaydah an Al Qaeda operative and Pelosi was informed of this also during the briefing. So her contention of not knowing and not knowing details is a flat out lie!
Ken Taylor
posted by The Liberal Lie The Conservative Truth | 2:32 PM
27 Comments:
This still isn't evidence. Where does it say "waterboarding?"
For years, the Bush administration denied extensive use of waterboarding. We have no idea what was and was not discussed in the September briefing. Goss says waterboarding was discussed. Pelosi said it was discussed but her understanding was that it had not been performed. There is no evidence of contradiction in her public statements.
But again, let's assume that she is lying - we don't know if she is or not - but let's just assume. If she committed a crime, she should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But, if she committed a crime by hearing about torture, then those that planned and executed the policies will face even more serious punishment.
I say investigate and prosecute everyone who should be prosecuted.
Nice try Rob.
Porter Goss, the other elected official in the briefing remembers it distinctly.
Let's also recall that Pelosi said: "We were not -- I repeat, we were not -- told that water boarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used."Clearly she is lying and if you really believe in accountability for all those who were aware of this I recommend you examine the entire 10 page list which is very explicit about which members knew and what they knew:
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/briefings.pdf
So, you ready to start criminal proceedings against Pelosi and all those Dems???
I'm waiting!
I would say the use of waterboarding on 3 people allows the Bush Administration to pretty legitimately deny "extensive use."
She is a liar, the end.
I would say that prosecuting a past administration for protecting our country is outrageous BS and a waste of our tax money and the court's time! This entire thing is beyond belief. I do believe Pelosi lied though. The proof is there, as you have shown, Ken. Liberals deny facts when they are staring them in the face because facts have nothing to do with their agenda.
Hearsay is not evidence. Because Porter Goss says so is not evidence.
Waterboarding a person 183 times in one month (6 times a day) is pretty extensive. Jeez, if you have to waterboard a guy 183 times you would have to think it wasn't working.
If crimes were committed then all who committed them should be prosecuted.
Rob, look at what this says. "a description of the particular EIT's that had been employed." With specific reference to Abu Zubaydah who was waterboarded.
Pelosi waas there and was given the details.
I can read Ken. It does not not indicate waterboarding specifically. We don't know what was said and not said in the briefing. Pelosi has never denied that waterboarding was discussed - she says that waterboarding was discussed in the context of future actions that may be taken.
If you went into court with your argument that what you have shown is evidence of lying, it wouldn't go anywhere.
As I have said, Pelosi may be lying, but we just haven't seen evidence of that. Even Porter Goss has not said that Congress had been told that waterboarding had been used - only that harsh treatment may be used. This is consistent with Pelosi's public statements. (Read Goss' public editorial column from a few days back).
I certainly believe that Pelosi should have said something about torture being immoral and ineffective as a technique for gathering info, but I have no idea what was said in the briefing.
Rob, as I've said in your forum, waterboarding Al Qaeda leaders when they told us imminent attacks might occur was completely justified. First, AQ leaders are not protected by the Geneva Convention, second, if you read the memos Obama released you'll see that we bent over backwards to assure that those waterboarded suffered no physical or psychological damage. As for Pelosi, her behaviour doesn't have to be criminal for it to be contemptable. In this case, she is, as usual, being deceptive and dishonest.
Dennis, your argument is very different than Ken's. Ken is making an argument that he has proof that Pelosi lied. I think you and I would agree that there isn't proof, there is circumstantial evidence and hearsay - but certainly not proof.
To your point Dennis, a public figure being deceptive and dishonest? Go figure. I am still waiting for Hannity to subject himself to waterboarding for the troops. I guess he was just being deceptive and dishonest. Dennis, somehow I doubt you view Hannity's deception with contempt.
Hannity isn't a public servant who took an oath to serve his constituents. Pelosi did take an oath. Your argument here is very weak at best. I also think that there is proof that Pelosi lied. She needs to come clean and explain to the American people what she knew and when she knew it. We need to be able to trust our leaders and Pelosi, with this scandal swirling around her, doesn't inspire trust. She should do the right thing and resign immediately.
She has explained herself - you just don't like her explanation. Hearsay is not proof.
OK, I get it, in your world, Hannity doesn't have any responsibility to tell the truth and live up to what he says. I am not a public servant and I haven't taken an oath, but people know my word is good. My parents taught me about responsibility - I guess Hannity didn't learn that lesson.
Hannity is very truthful and he does have a responsibility to tell the truth. He fulfills that responsibility everyday. He has far more credibility than the major media outlets. Pelosi hasn't satisfactorily explained what she knew and when she knew it regarding waterboarding. She's been very evasive on this subject. She needs to clear up all the "hearsay". We need a Speaker of the House with integrity. She's a disgrace to her office.
I guess Hannity just lied this one time. Too bad the troops won't get the charity money that he said he would raise because he is too afraid of being waterboarded. Olbermann was willing to donate $1000 per second as were a lot of other organizations and individuals. Oh well.
Rob, Hannity has raised and continues to raise millions of dollars supporting the children of soldiers who have dies in the line of duty. So there is no need to belittle the excellent work he does with this and other charities because he will not take a dare from someone as stupid and irresponsible as Keith Olbermann.
It wasn't a dare - Hannity offered to do it all on his own (but I guess he lied).
I am not aware of any effort Hannity has had to raise "millions of dollars" for children of soldiers. Do you have any link for that?
There is no question in my mind that he could literally raise several million if he would actually live up to his offer to be waterboarded. Americans who think Hannity is a blowhard would give hundreds of thousands to see him waterboarded. But let's be honest - he isn't going to live up to his offer because he is full of it.
Ken, there is no reason to defend the guy. He offered to help troops and he won't live up to it. That's just the way it is.
Rob, Hannity has put on Freedon Concerts for more than six years held thoughout the country. These concerts have raised millions for Freedom Alliance, founded by Oliver North which provides funds for children of soldiers killed in the line of duty.
The concerts average ticket sales of around 30K people with some venues holding more. All performers donate their time with all proceeds from the concerts going to charity. There are usually eight to ten concerts during the summer and early fall.
Through 2008 around 9 million dollars has been raised through the concerts.
I know you don't want to believe it, but Hannity's Freedom Concerts are pretty much a scam.
Most of the money goes to pay off organizers - very little of it goes toward scholarships. For example, you state that $9M has been raised through the concerts. That may be true, but only $2.5M has been paid out in scholarships. that is according to their own website.The Freedom Alliance has refused to provide requested info to the Better Business Bureau, and tickets for the Freedom Concerts are not tax deductible.
But Ken, that is neither here nor there - Hannity could raise $5 million in one day in straight donations (no overhead costs) just by living up to his offer to be waterboarded. But we both know that isn't going to happen and that Hannity was just lying.
OK Rob, since it is obvious that you don't unk your last like Hannity and nothing he does is right, I'll use your research standard to debunk your last comment.
First your ,"source," for the legitamcy ofthe Freeom Alliance is the Daily KOS. An extreme left wing website that attacks anything and anyone that does not agree with their left wing agenda. A s a source against Hannity, if Hannity had personally donated 100,000,000 dollars to The Salvation Army with no strings attached, the KOS would have found a way of spinning it to sound as if The Salvation Army was a extreme right wing hate organization because Hannity liked it.
The 2.5 million is not what has been raised but what has been AWARDED thus far. You can't give a scholarship until someone reaches the age to attend college. And personally I think awardiing free scholarships totaling 2.5 million is a pretty big deal.
Now your BBB link. I typed in Habitat For Humanities in the search box and the response came back that no such organization exists in the BBB files. So are they considered non-reputable because BBB does not have a file on them ?
I am not a great Hannity fan. I listen to his show and watch his TV show but find that sometimes he can be redundantut I also respect what he does and cannot fault him for the Freedom Concerts and the money raised for children of dead soldiers.
You on the other hand do not like him and your opinion about anything he does is biased because of that dislike. That my friend is obvious.
Don't accept the discussion on Kos - it doesn't matter. You said the concerts raised $9M and they have given out $2.5M. The tickets are not tax deductible so it is not considered a charity.
The BBB requested the info specifically and didn't get it. I cannot speak to what they requested of Habitat for Humanity.
That said, I don't like Hannity and think he is a blowhard. He said he would be willing to be waterboarded for charity - specifically for families of troops - on his own show. But clearly he isn't going to do it. I'm not surprised because he is a blowhard.
Ken, I just looked up Habitat for Humanity at the BBB. They show up. I don't know why you had trouble finding them.
Unlike Freedom Alliance, they meet all 20 BBB standards for full BBB accreditation as a charity.
For that matter, the Salvation Army is in good BBB standing.As is the United Way.The American Heart AssociationLook if you want to help the troops you are better off going with an organization like:
Paralyzed Vets of Americaor
The Purple Heart
Rob, why you want to get in a discourse about cherities I don't know. I only brought up The Salvation Army as an example concerning the reaction KOS would have if Hannity had involvement with them..that's all. I have worked more than a dozen hurricanes and countless tornadoes, fires and floods with disater relief with The Salvation Army. Both manning and coordinating both feeding and other services for them. So my familiarity with the org. is from first hand experience.
As far as the tickets go Hanntiy's concerts are not tax deductable because he is not a non-profit nor are his conerts. The concerts are a venue that he uses to donate proceeds to the Freedom Alliance.
During a the after math of hurricane Floyd we experienced a devistating flood here. I organized a concert in Myrtle Beach with the group Alabama with the proceeds going to The Salvation Army disater relief fund. The tickets were not tax deductable because Alabama nor their theatre are non-profits. Alabama did the concert and announced that the proceeds were for The SA. People purchased tickets as they would for any other Alabam concert.
The same is true for the Freedom concerts by Hannity. They are an avenue he uses to donate to the Freedom Alliance because it is a charity he believes in.
As far as the difference between the 9 million Hannity has donated through the Freedom Concerts and the 2.5 million given up to last year in scholarships, any charitable org. not every penny raised is distributed at time it is raised. It many times comes when it is possible for the need to be met.
For instance, after the recent fire here that destroyed 80 homws and damaged over 100 more displaced families cannot recieve donated items and/or money that is coming in for them to recover in a new home because the home does not exist.
Those items and money will be distributed when those displaced are in new or replacement homes. Until then they are cared for in different ways because that is the need at the moment.
So Freedom Alliance in the same manner distributes scholarship money as childern reach college age and not before. Your reason for not trusting Freedom Alliance is only because Hannity and Northsname are associated with it and not because of the merits of the charity.
Freedom Alliance recieves a four star rating through the Charity Navigator which investigates and rates charities according to their viability and following their expressed purpose
Just as a reference the Red Cross recieves a two star rating from the group. The Salvation Army is not evaluated because the group does not evaluate any charity that has religious ties.
I do look up Habitat for Humanities and they recieved that same rating as Freedom Alliance.
I have no idea what Charity Navigator is. I am comfortable with the BBB.
That said, in the end, Hannity won't actually live up to what he said he would do. Too bad for the troops' families.
Rob, there's nothing stopping Olbermann from writing a big check for the troops. He doesn't have to wait for Hannity to be waterboarded. As Ken indicates, Hannity has already raised millions of $$ for the troops. That's probably far more than anything Olbermann has done.
OK, but that doesn't change the fact that Hannity lied.
Waterboarding a person 183 times in one month (6 times a day) is pretty extensive. Jeez, if you have to waterboard a guy 183 times you would have to think it wasn't working.Or maybe question its qualifications as "torture".
The 183 number is the number of applications/pourings that he received. According to KSM himself, he experienced 5 waterboarding sessions. Not 183.
Here is a copy of Steven Bradbury's explanation of EITs and waterboarding. It explains the rules that Bush authorized.
In the memo on p. 37 it explains that KSM was waterboarded 183 times and Zubaydah was waterboarded "at least 83 times".
It also explains that waterboarding "may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds)."
Your math doesn't add up to 5 waterboarding sessions. You can only apply water 6 times per session - 12 times in a day. That means that KSM would have to be tortured in no less than 31 sessions under the approved waterboarding rules. Unless you are suggesting that the CIA violated the already illegal rules.
Putting Hannity through a 90 second session with just two applications would be enough to make him cry like a baby and "confess" that Keith Olbermann is his favorite TV personality. That is why he isn't going to live up to his own offer to help the troops.
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