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HISTORICAL QUOTE OF THE WEEK - "Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other." ABRAHAM LINCOLN

Sunday, June 03, 2007

GLOBAL WARMING ON NEPTUNE - THE SUNDAY COMMENTARY

Date Line Neptune - The Planet Neptune is heating up and is now suffering from Global Warming. Since 1980 Neptune's average temperature has increased 7.80 degrees which is causing massive climate changes in the planet that is furthest from the Sun. Pluto is no longer considered a , "planet," in our Solar System therefor Neptune's orbit places it at the furthest reaches of the Solar System.

Panic is ensuing on the planet by inhabitants who see Global Warming as the most dangerous threat to Neptune Kind in the history of the Planet. The Neptunian Nations Climatology Committee has recently completed a conference on the effects of Neptune Global Warming on the Planets future and have come up with some startling conclusions.

According to the Committee, whose members consist of the most renowned Scientists in the Neptunian Scientific Community, Neptune's Polar Ice Caps are melting at an astounding rate which will cause Neptune's oceans, once they melt, to rise and flood coastal areas throughout the world bringing death and destruction to all major Neptunian Cities along the coast of each Neptunian Continent.

Neptune's atmosphere is primarily composed of hydrogen and helium, with traces of methane gasses and the , "Gashouse, "effect which stems from these gasses being trapped in the atmosphere are what the Committee attribute to the rise in the average temperature of Neptune.

Neptune's Global Warming Guru Halbart Yore former Vice President of The Neptunian States and whose recent movie , "A Non-Convenient Fact, " has received high acclaim from Wallywood and a Homer Award for Best Documentary, states emphatically with the Neptunian Nations Global Warming Conference that the primary cause of the, "Gashouse, "effect is man made.

Siting industrialization, increased SUV use by Neptunians, ( who have chosen this form of transportation over much more climatological friendly Neptunian Hyprids), deforestation, (though most Neptunian's have never seen a tree since the atmosphere cannot support plant life), and man made floral carbons from many sources especially planes, each of these Neptunian man made problems have caused the tremendous increase in Neptune's temperature.

Yore warns, " that if Neptunian's do not cut back floral carbons and stop the,"Gashouse, " effect the icecaps will melt completely, much of the East Coast of the Neptunian States will be under water, famine will cause the deaths of millions of Neptunians as food will become scarce and the Planet Neptune will eventually no longer support life."

Yore and the Scientific Community have introduced a plan to off set use of private jets and chauffeur driven SUV's by those like he whose life style does not afford them to make the sacrifices that he is demanding of the rest of Neptune. Carbon off sets can be purchased to plant an equal number of trees to counter the floral carbons released into the atmosphere by jets and SUV's.

While most Neptunians have no idea where trees can be planted on this Planet that cannot support plant life Yore and those who have given the dire warnings about Global Warming will have their conscience eased as they contribute to the betterment of the planet.

Story from a Neptunian Times article written by Yikes Wallace.


This entire Neptune story that you have just read sounds incredibly stupid doesn't it ? Yet while the un-inhabited planet of Neptune could never have a story like the one above the fact is that Global Warming IS taking place on the planet.

Since 1980 the average temperature of Neptune has increased by 7.80 degrees and the graph at the beginning of the article is factual. Scientists actually attribute the Global Warming of Neptune to increased Solar activity from the Sun.

Neptune is the furthest Planet from the Sun and its temperature has increased nearly 8 degrees in just over 20 years from Solar activity while our own Planet Earth's temperature third Planet from the Sun has increased nearly one degree in a little less than 100 years.

In case you do not remember science classes from school Neptune is not inhabited and does not suffer from any man made floral carbons, SUV use, planes, industrialization or the, "Greenhouse, " effect yet Neptune's temperature has increase nearly 8 degrees in 25 years compared to 1 degree on Earth in nearly one hundred.

Neptune's Global Warming is caused entirely by the Sun but according to Al Gore and the United Nations Climatology report man is the primary cause of Earth's Global Warming with little or no mention of even the remote possibility that the same Sun causing the massive increase on Neptune could be the major and quite possibly the ONLY source of Earth's Global Warming as it IS on Neptune

Yes the above fictionalized story about Neptune Global Warming sounds really stupid and so does Al Gore's story about Earth!

Ken Taylor

253 Comments:

Anonymous D.S.Harford said...

Polar Bear and the Seal





PB: Hey there little fellow. How you doin?
S: Pretty good, just came up for some air. . . aaah you ain’t hungry are you?
PB: Naw I got my fill yesterday.
S: Yea, we saw, pretty gruesome if you ask me.
PB: Hey, I didn’t make this world, just trying to survive.
S: Tell me about it.
PB: So what da ya think?
S: About what?
PB: The global warming thang.
S: Global what?
PB: Ya know, it’s getting warmer stuff.
S: I wish; you have any idea how cold it is swimming under this damn ice?
PB: Thought with all that blubber you have, it wouldn’t bother you.
S: Well it does. So when is it going to warm up.
PB: There’re not sure, but it definitely is.
S: Who told you this stuff?
PB: Al Gore did.
S: You spoke to a human?
PB: No, I said Al Gore told me.
S: Where did you meet it.
PB: Off the north shore where I was swimming from one ice to another and it waved to me. So I went over to see what it wanted.
S: Wow! what did it say?
PB: It said that it loved me.
S: Loved you?
PB: Cross my mamby, that’s what it said.
S: So why does it love you?
PB: Because I’m beautiful.
S: What bullshit.
PB: I’m telling ya , that’s exactly the way it happened.
S: Ok, ok, so what’s causing things to get warmer?
PB: C02
S: What’s C02?
PB: It’s a gas that animals exhale.
S: Oh my god. . . . really.
PB: Yep and it said that they were doing too much of it.
S: Is that why the humans keep trying to kill us off?
PB: No dummy, they like to eat you.
S: You would know all about that. So what else did the Gore thing tell you?
PB: That the humans were doing more than their fair share.
S: Exhaling?
PB: Yep and it said I would be a star.
S: Like one of those dots in the sky?
PB: No! Like in the human movies.
S: Why?
PB: I don’t know. He asked me to swim and make it look like I was having a hard time of it. So I swam out, but how embarrassing it would be, if I looked like I was having a hard time. Like think who might see that.
S: Wow! What else happened ?
PB: Hmmm Oh! When I got back I offered to eat one of the humans there with him. You know, to help the global warming thang.
S: Did you?
PB: Nope, it said that it would take care of it.
S: Eating the human or the global warming thang.
PB: It didn’t say, maybe both.
S: You sure you’re not hungry?
PB: Take it easy dude.
S: Ok, but that’s one hell of a story? Any thing else?
PB: Only it kept waving its arms around a lot and yelling, which was scaring those sled dogs and me too a little.
S: Maybe it was trying to scare the CO2 away.
PB: Might be, ya know I didn’t think of that.
S: What was it yelling?
PB: I’M SMART I’M SMART THE DEBATE IS OVER.
S: Thought you said it was AL GORE.
PB: I did, don’t ask it’s just what I heard, ok?
S: Sorry, you still not hungry?
PB: Look dude as I told you before I ain’t hungry, but this Al Gore might be.
S: That’s all I need, another predator.
PB: I don’t think it eats seals.
S: How would you know that?
PB: Cause your too ugly.
S: Thanks, so what does it eat.
PB: Not sure, didn’t get the chance to ask.
S: You got to be putting me on.
PB: I’m TELLING you dude, exactly the way it happened.
S: Yea, so how does it know about this thang thing.
PB: I forgot. . . ya know, I asked it about that and he yelled at me.
S: I’M SMART I’M SMART. . . .
PB: Exactly. . . while waving his arms.
S: Sorry forgot that part. So it then must know?
PB: Apparently.
S: Wow! So how’s it going to fix it.
PB: Well it tried to explain that, but I didn’t quite understand its words. Something to do with his religion, love of a river, leaves, birds, tobacco and tree frogs
S: Religion? How is that going to get rid of CO1
PB: CO2
S: Right CO2
PB: Not sure.
S: Your making this all up. . . right?
PB: HEY I ‘m just reporting what I heard. I stayed until it left.
S: And it grew wings and flew off.
PB: No, it took off its shoes and got on one of those plane thangs, which really stunk the place up.
S: Why did he take off his shoes?
PB: Have no idea. Well here comes that damn wind again. I’m heading for the den.
S: Hey. . one sec.
PB: What.
S: You think it will come back.
PB: Don’t know, depends on how hungry it is. Catch ya later.
S: Yea. . . . . lets hope not.

11:28 AM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

You must be right Ken, what do scientists actually know anyway. I guess 95 percent of the world's climate experts are just REALLY STUPID.

Either that, or Gore is right.

12:59 PM, June 03, 2007  
Anonymous Seth said...

Wow, Ken! How did our greenhouse gases get all the way to Neptune?

I mean, "according to 95% of the world's scientists", humans are responsible for all global warming, and since there are no humans on Neptune, presumably we must be destroying that planet as well.

1:52 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Mike's America said...

95% of the Worlds climate experts...

Oh what a kettle of fish!

Care to define who is and is not included in that list?

I've got list after list after list of acclaimed, published, tenured and respected climate scientists who say YOU are an environmental scaremonger.

Yes, let's all just totally restructure ONLY the U.S. economy while India, Brazil and China dump larger amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere just to make Rob happy.

Love the satire Ken. Good job.

3:50 PM, June 03, 2007  
Anonymous mudkitty said...

Snark.

4:25 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

Global climate change is not a Democratic or Republican issue. Nor is it just an American issue.

The solutions to environmental and energy issues will not cost jobs they will create jobs. When new, cleaner technologies are invented they will create millions of new jobs. They will come, because I believe in the power of human ingenuity. Hopefully they will be created here in the U.S. and not in Europe, China, Japan, India, etc. Otherwise we are going to have to license those technologies and pay even more money to foreigners. If that happens, it will come at the expense of American wealth and American workers.

It doesn't really matter to me that some people choose to ignore science, but to argue that there is not scientific consensus about the issue is simply ludicrous.

Even Bush is talking about global climate change and about taking action to reduce greenhouse gases. Just look up what he said this past week.

5:06 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger The Liberal Lie The Conservative Truth said...

EVen the head of the National Hurricane Center who is retiring has stated that now that he has the time he plans on spending most of it on the lecture tour to correct falshoods and misconceptions about GW.

He does not see man as the cause but the Sun and that it is especially NOT the cause of Hurricane activity but all as a natural cycle that the Earth goes through.

I think he IS pretty much the experst, expert!

6:36 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Funny, that argument about 'scientific consensus'. The fact is if there is ample scientific evidence then there is no consensus. Consensus and science are mutually exclusive.

con·sen·sus:
–noun, plural -sus·es.

1. majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.

2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

A consensus is an opinion not sicentific evidence, proof or fact. There is a consensus here that mudkitty is a blithering idiot. Does that make it absolute, incontrovertable and unquestionable? No. It simply means that a group of people share an opinion.

6:41 PM, June 03, 2007  
Anonymous JC said...

The problem with that study on Neptune warming (and the graphs displayed above) is it uses solar output from an outdated reconstruction of solar irradiance (Foukal et al). Foukal's reconstruction contradicts direct satellite measurements that have found solar output has shown no rising trend since 1978, sunspot numbers which have leveled out since 1950, the Max Planck Institute reconstruction that shows irradience has been steady since 1940 and solar radio flux or flare activity which shows no rising trend over the past 30 years.

Foukal has since updated his work and concluded that solar variations are too small to have contributed appreciably to accelerated global warming over the past 30 years. So why this study would use Foukal's outdated older study instead of more recent work or direct observations baffles me.

So if the sun isn't getting hotter, what's causing Neptune's warming? Neptune's orbit is 164 years so observations (1950 to present day) span less than a third of a Neptunian year. Climate modelling of Neptune suggests its brightening is a seasonal response. Eg - Neptune's southern hemisphere is heading into summer

8:00 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

Ken, if you are referring to Max Mayfield, I am not aware of any statements, lectures he has given, or theories he holds that global warming is not a man-made phenomenon. Please direct me to any link that you have in which he says global warming is not real, or that is driven by man. If you are referring to someone else, please also let me know.

I saw Mayfield say on TV sometime that he is not convinced that the data has not conclusively shown that hurricane intensity has been significantly impacted by global warming. But, that is a far cry from saying that global warming is not real.

Bush's own U.S. EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/stateofknowledge.html

and NOAA:

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#INTRO

now discuss the realities of global warming. These are relatively new websites.

CC - scientific consensus is based on the best available SCIENCE, data, theory, and observable facts. It is not just an opinion in a vacuum that some folks agree to make in the absence of scientific data. The reason there is consensus on global warming in the scientific community is simple - that is what the scientific evidence points to.

If there is credible evidence that global warming is untrue, it will emerge. Until that time, I will subscribe to the very strong and ever growing scientific consensus among climate experts that global warming is real and that it is a great and growing problem.

I certainly hope it is not a problem, but "hope" is not science. Willfully sticking my head in the sand won't change anything. That doesn't mean that I am not open to contrarian facts and evidence - I just haven't seen, read, or heard of anything credible.

And, unlike some right-wingers, I don't simply dismiss the scientific community as ignorant folks who are part of some vast liberal plot to lie to the world in some nefarious plot to do who knows what.

10:21 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

I do not dismiss the scientist either until they start claiming that the discussion is over.

There is also a consensus among thousands of scientists that global warming is being caused by the normal cycles our planet's complex evnironment. We do not have enough credible evidence to solely blame humans for global warming. We actually have evidence of that to the contrary.

I beleive that the planet is warming. Studies have shown an overall 0.7 degree celcius warming over the last 100 years. This is however been dotted with periods of warming and cooling trends that alternate back and forth.

I have posted two seperate articles dealing with the conflicting information over the Global Warming issue. In my first, An Inconsistant Truth - Part One, I detal several issue that raise question to the validity of the closed minded perception that humans are the cause of global climate change.

Without going into all the detail here, one of the points I made about Greenland has been recently reinforced. Under the receding icepack over Greenland they are discovering the remains of civilizations who inhabited the island before they were forced off by the expanding icepacks. This was just in the news last week. Thus leading to the logical conclusion that Greenland was not always completely covered by ice. It then follows that the earth may be returning to a more normal state that existed a thousand years ago when the Vikings inhabited the island.

In my second post, An Inconsistent Truth - Part Two, I highlight an article by one of the leading Canadian climatologist. Timothy Ball, the first Canadian to hold a Ph.D in climatology, wrote an article debunking alot of the pseudo-science and severly critizizing those who close the discussion on the matter.

The problem we are facing is that we do not understand the complex climate of this planet nearly enough to know if we could even effect a long term climate shift. We are also faced with those who say the question of Global Warming is over and there is no challenging the answer. That is not science at all. Science, by its very nature and definition, challenge the accepted wisdom and continuosly attempts to prove the status quo invalid or continues to provide credible evidence to support it. It never says that the question has been answered never to be challenged again.

In the seventies we were facing the Global Cooling crisis and now it is the Global Warming one. The media feeds of crisis and bad news and all you ever hear of is the doomsayers. You never hear of the voices crying foul and contradicting the prevailing wisdom.

The question of Global Warming is far from over and we are far from being the primary cause. We may contribute or we may not. The verdict is still out on the entire issue.

11:54 PM, June 03, 2007  
Blogger Mark 2000 said...

This was pretty funny stuff. Global warming is such a shame. Anyone seen this cartoon yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvHhTSJlBY

It's pretty funny stuff.

12:24 AM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

CC - 81 percent of Greenland is covered in ice. It has been covered in ice for at least 5000 years. The Inuit make up 80 percent of the population of Greenland and have lived there as ice dwellers for at least 5000 years. The warming that is now taking place is unprecedented.

By the way, Erik the Red named it Greenland so that he could make it sound more hospitable for his Norse bretheren to make the trip.

Timothy Ball? Geez dude, you need to check out your sources. The guy is a quack and has been debunked as a liar about his credentials. This so-called expert has published a total of 4 peer-reviewed papers in his career and none in the last 11 years. The guy is a paid lobbyist for Big Oil. He was paid $225,000 by Exxon Mobil to "muddy the waters" of global warming research.

http://www.desmogblog.com/node/1272

I'm a university professor and I had 3 peer-reviewed journal publications and 3 major conference papers in the last year alone. Holding Timothy Ball out as a global climate expert is a joke.

If you actually have a real expert and some real (preferably recent) research you want to cite I'll take a look. But please at least do a minimal background check. Just so you know, there are folks on the web who inflate their credentials and who don't tell the full truth.

1:31 AM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

I suppose you regard the NASA report that Martian warming is due to an increase in solar energy that was listed in my first article with the same incredulity?

There are lists... There are plenty of lists.

Here are a few:

The Global Warming Petition Project.

Wikipedia - Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming

Climate Momentum Shifting: Prominent Scientists
Reverse Belief in Man-made Global Warming - Now
Skeptics (PDF)


I only cited Timothy Ball in that article specifically because of the attacks that he has recieved for his position on Global Warming. There are many others. Also, the attacks against him have been largely refuted, including the one that he did not posses a doctorate in climatology.

Doctorate Confimation Letter.
Climatologist Timothy Ball sends PhD to Canada Free Press - Article on Canada Free Press

2:13 AM, June 04, 2007  
Anonymous JC said...

The problem with Hammel's study is it uses solar output from an outdated reconstruction of solar irradiance (Foukal et al). Foukal's reconstruction contradicts direct satellite measurements that have found solar output has shown no rising trend since 1978, sunspot numbers which have leveled out since 1950, the Max Planck Institute reconstruction that shows irradience has been steady since 1940 and solar radio flux or flare activity which shows no rising trend over the past 30 years.

Foukal has since updated his work and concluded that solar variations are too small to have contributed appreciably to accelerated global warming over the past 30 years. So why this study would use Foukal's outdated older study instead of more recent work or direct observations baffles me.

So if the sun isn't getting hotter, what's causing Neptune's warming? Neptune's orbit is 164 years so observations (1950 to present day) span less than a third of a Neptunian year. Climate modelling of Neptune suggests its brightening is a seasonal response. Eg - Neptune's southern hemisphere is heading into summer

8:37 AM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Gayle said...

It's not just Neptune. Mars is heating up too. Heavens to Mergatroid, we are ruining the entire Solar System! ROLF! Great post, Ken. We can argue this stuff until hell freezes over... I mean "until hell warms up" and it will get us nowhere because so many people actually want to believe that people are responsible for GW. Just like they want to believe America is evil and is the cause of everything that's wrong with the world.

11:00 AM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Oh my God, Gayle you have stumbled on to the real cause of Global Warming... GW. As in GW Bush. It has to be. He is responsible for all the other ills in the world, so he must be responsible for climate change as well.

12:16 PM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Oh and JC, the NASA study I cited in my article was concluded in 2005 based on evidence collected between 1999 and 2005.

Once again the problem is that we have conflicting scientific data from reputable sources, yet everyone in the human caused Global Warming camp says the discussion is over.

12:21 PM, June 04, 2007  
Anonymous mudkitty said...

You guys are liars when you suggest the left says that global warming or climate change is caused by man...

Scientists say it is "accelerated" by man. Get it? I know you right wingers hate nuance.

1:34 PM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

CC - The Global Warming Petition Project? Please. You really need to find better sources.

Read about who funds the Petition Project and the highly questionable "scientists."

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,1875762,00.html

The fact that anyone could sign the petition and there was no screening process (the petition including fictitious folks and celebrities) calls into question the whole list. In addition, the fact that they tried to make the non-peer reviewed paper appear as an NAS paper is just further proof of their attempted deception.

Media Matters does a good job of discussing the false myths that global warning deniers cite - including your Mars/Sun theory.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200703230007?offset=20&show=1

Look, I don't mind if you want to believe that there is no scientific consensus and that global warming is not real. But, that is not consistent with the best available scientific conclusions.

4:33 PM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Ok so you are dismissing a 2005 NASA report on Martian warming due to solar cycles as a false myth?

That is my problem with the issue right there. If it does not fit into your line of thinking it is immediately deemed false or mythical.

I agree that some of the names on the Petition are fraudulent, but not all. I pulled the top three lists on a google search. There are many others.

You cannot have a serious discussion of the matter if you continue to dismiss any findings that may contradict your opinion no matter what their source.

I think it safe to consider NASA a valid source for information.

There are thousands of articles posted by premiere scientists about the issue of global warming and its causes. They range the gambit from natural planetary cycles to solar radiation emmissions to greenhouse gases. There is NO definitive evidence that can absolutely prove or disprove any of the theories at this point. We simply do not have enough information to know what is occurring and certainly not near enough to close the discussion as so many would have.

Here are a few more reading example for you. Please read them and do not summarily dismiss them.

The Cato Institute Handbook

World Climate Report There are several articles on that site.

The National Center for Public Policy Research as far back as 1998.

National Geographic itself.

There are many more and just as many supporting man made global climate change. The point is that we do not know and no matter what changes the United States of America makes, it will not avert the crisis even if it is man made.

I am all about conservation, my entire house is run on energy efficeint flourescent bulbs. I only use LCD panels for my systems and my wife an I carpool to our jobs. That just makes good sense. It reduces our consumption, is environmentally friendly and the main point is that it saves me money.

Crippling the American economy while the resto of the world goes scott free by purchasing bogus carbon off-sets and ignoring all attempts at emmissions control does not make sense.

Tell Al Gore to stop flying around in his private jets (which emmits more of a 'carbon footprint' in a single flight than my wife's SUV does all year) and having huge motorcades escort him to his Global Warming conventions, before you tell me I need to change. Tell him to stop using more energy to power his lush expansive mansion in a single month than an average American household uses in an entire year and then maybe I will seriously listen.

It is the height of idiocy and hypocracy for those who use and abuse the environment for their own benifit to lecture those of us living our normal lives. It is rehtorical stupidity for Hollywood celebrities to preach to us of Global Warming when their very industry is one of the top consumers of energy and top releasers of polution that exists in this country.

6:14 PM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

OK CC, I’ll humor you and actually respond. I apologize in advance for the long post. I usually don’t bother, but I’ll do it this one time.

You’re citing a completely debunked theory on solar activity causing planetary warming. The sun is not causing Martian temps to rise. NASA just issued a report that the warming is due to winds and dust devils kicking up dust and revealing more dark layers on the Martian surface.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070404-mars-warming.html

I read the Cato report. Their main point is simply that Kyoto is not likely to have much impact on global warming. That is what I would expect from Cato – it is largely a liberatarian thinktank that believes in little to no government regulation. (FYI, they cannot stand Bush and his policies and have been very critical of his increased spending. I would encourage you to see what they think of his huge government programs, deficit spending, Iraq war policy, etc.) They question whether the surface temps that the IPCC used in their report is the best measure of warming, but then they argue that “. . . the pronounced warming of the Northern Hemisphere land areas in the winter is a ‘‘greenhouse’’ signal of human-induced change.” SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

What do you want me to look at the World Climate Report Blog site? Give me something specific and I will comment.

I got a real kick out of the press release you linked to at the National Center for Public Policy Research (as if it were a scientific report). It is outdated and just plain wrong now with nearly a decade of new data. The press release argues that most global warming occurred prior to 1940. That is now completely debunked. Quoting from a 2005 NASA report:

“Global warming is now 0.6°C in the past three decades and 0.8°C in the past century. It is no longer correct to say that "most global warming occurred before 1940". More specifically, there was slow global warming, with large fluctuations, over the century up to 1975 and subsequent rapid warming of almost 0.2°C per decade.”

See the report for yourself at: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/

The latest NASA reports from just the last month are even more dire. They argue that “NASA and Columbia University Earth Institute research finds that human-made greenhouse gases have brought the Earth's climate close to critical tipping points, with potentially dangerous consequences for the planet.” (http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20070530/), and “NASA scientists suggests that greenhouse-gas warming may raise average summer temperatures in the eastern United States nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit by the 2080s.” (http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20070509/)

What is your explanation for the latest NASA climate reports?

Look if you want to cite discredited scientists, highly questionable lists of alleged scientists, and right-wing lobbyists who are funded by Big Oil that is fine with me. But, please take a look in the mirror when you accuse me of discounting reports that don't fit with my view on global warming. You obviously have an agenda that you want to hold on to - but that is completely at odds with sound science.

Once again, scientific consensus does not mean absolute proof and agreement - what it means is that based on the best available science there is overwhelming agreement among scientists about the reality of global warming. The body of evidence supporting global warming is largely impacted by human activity is growing not shrinking. Every day, that theory is becoming more and more certain.

Tell me when your next “world is really flat” meeting is so that I can get a good laugh.

10:10 PM, June 04, 2007  
Blogger Mike's America said...

Some comprehensive reporting to rock the foundations of spin and falsehoods by your enviro-zealots:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

"Only an insignificant fraction of scientists deny the global warming crisis. The time for debate is over. The science is settled."

S o said Al Gore ... in 1992. Amazingly, he made his claims despite much evidence of their falsity. A Gallup poll at the time reported that 53% of scientists actively involved in global climate research did not believe global warming had occurred; 30% weren't sure; and only 17% believed global warming had begun. Even a Greenpeace poll showed 47% of climatologists didn't think a runaway greenhouse effect was imminent; only 36% thought it possible and a mere 13% thought it probable.

Today, Al Gore is making the same claims of a scientific consensus, as do the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and hundreds of government agencies and environmental groups around the world. But the claims of a scientific consensus remain unsubstantiated. They have only become louder and more frequent.


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Al Gore's views have credible dissenters.
David McNew, Getty Images File Photo

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Font: ****More than six months ago, I began writing this series, The Deniers. When I began, I accepted the prevailing view that scientists overwhelmingly believe that climate change threatens the planet. I doubted only claims that the dissenters were either kooks on the margins of science or sell-outs in the pockets of the oil companies.

...
My series set out to profile the dissenters -- those who deny that the science is settled on climate change -- and to have their views heard. To demonstrate that dissent is credible, I chose high-ranking scientists at the world's premier scientific establishments. I considered stopping after writing six profiles, thinking I had made my point, but continued the series due to feedback from readers. I next planned to stop writing after 10 profiles, then 12, but the feedback increased. Now, after profiling more than 20 deniers, I do not know when I will stop -- the list of distinguished scientists who question the IPCC grows daily, as does the number of emails I receive, many from scientists who express gratitude for my series.

Somewhere along the way, I stopped believing that a scientific consensus exists on climate change. Certainly there is no consensus at the very top echelons of scientists -- the ranks from which I have been drawing my subjects -- and certainly there is no consensus among astrophysicists and other solar scientists, several of whom I have profiled. If anything, the majority view among these subsets of the scientific community may run in the opposite direction. Not only do most of my interviewees either discount or disparage the conventional wisdom as represented by the IPCC, many say their peers generally consider it to have little or no credibility. In one case, a top scientist told me that, to his knowledge, no respected scientist in his field accepts the IPCC position.


More at:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

Poor Rob! All that work defending A LIE!

3:21 AM, June 05, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

Mike, did you actually look at the "experts" that are profiled in the series of "Deniers" you linked to?

Denier #1 - Dr. Edward Wegman is a professor at the Center for Computational Statistics at George Mason University. Not exactly a climatologist.

Denier #2 - Dr. Richard Tol received his PhD in Economics from the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam. Not exactly a climatologist.

Denier #3 - Dr. Christopher Landsea received his doctoral degree in atmospheric science from Colorado State University. Good one, but he doesn't doubt that global warming is caused by humans. His criticism is that the evidence is unclear on whether global warming has changed hurricane patterns.

Denier #4 - Dr. Duncan Wingham was educated at Leeds and Bath Universities where he gained a B.Sc. and PhD. in Physics. Not exactly a climatologist. But again, he doesn't dispute that global warming as a result of human activity is happening. He argues that the impacts on Antarctica are not as bad as some suggest.

Denier #5 - Dr. Richard Lindzen received his PhD in applied mathematics in 1964 from Harvard University. Again, not a climatologist, but his main complaint is that the press focused on the chapter summaries of the IPCC report and that in the chapter that he wrote there were some uncertainties in his mathematical model that were not reported.

Mike, do you have any freaking idea who Lawrence Solomon is? Do you know who actually funds his ridiculous front organization? Man, you will grasp at any straws in an effort to maintain your ideological position.

The fact that I actually read science reports and you cling to poorly written, misrepresented summaries of mostly non-climatologists is why your position is so weak. If you think that I am lying, then I you must believe that the U.S. National Academy of Sciences is lying.

http://dels.nas.edu/basc/Climate-HIGH.pdf

The NASA scientists are lying.

The scientists at the U.S. EPA are lying.

The scientists at NOAA are lying.

Oh, but Lawrence Solomon is the only one delivering the truth. It is laughable. Maybe you should write a letter to President Bush that his science experts are all lying.

10:19 AM, June 05, 2007  
Anonymous Henry said...

Here's a funny little story about scientific "consensus".

2:17 PM, June 05, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Bob, JC, I think you are missing my point. I said that I do not deny that there is a warming trend on this planet.

My point is this. In the 70's there was 'scientific consensus' that we were experiencing a dangerous cycle of Global Cooling that was threatening to send us into a little ice age. NASA itself has tottered back and forth on this issue for the last 30 years, announcing warming trends, cooling trends and analisys on both that seemed to prove true. Even as recent as June 1st, 2007 the NASA Science Director questoined the need to react to these warming trends, even while many of his own scientist disagreed.

Some people project that a warming period could end up releasing more greenhouse gases and water vapor into the atmosphere, thus increasing cloud cover, much as after volcanic eruptions, and trigger a severe cooling period leading to an ice age. Other think that the warming trend will continure unhampered relegating equatorial climates to unhabitable zones. Some still think that the Earth make minor corrections to its environment on a cyclical basis and that we are in the middle of such a correction.

The problem is that we were just as sure about the global crisis that the cooling trend from the 1940's to the late 1970's illustrated presneted and apparently we were wrong then.

My entire point was to show you that the discussion is not closed. It is not over. My whole point is that the knee jerk reaction and this environmental panic is not justified. We need more research. We need more discussion. I work in the environmental industry for Christ's sake. I am all about conservation and ecological management. Why? Becuase polluting for no damn good reason is stupid, wasteful and I believe we were left as stewards of this planet. But science is not about consensus. It is the anti-thesis of concensus. I work in an environmental analytical laboratory. If we returned test results for our samples as consensus, not demonstrable, documented and supportable fact, we would be out of business or possible in jail.

For a scientist to close the discussion on any scientific subject and say that we know all we need to know about the matter goes against all the principals of science itself.

I pointed out alternative to your way of thinking, some brouhgt by credible, acknowledged scientific bodies or independant research groups, to show you that there is enough skepticism out there that we simply do not KNOW what is causing the changes. We may claim we know now, just as we claimed we did 30 years ago, but it cannot be proven and imperically tested.

Most of the models that we use to estimate climate change use variables in our environment and atmosphere which we have to guess or theorize about because we cannot possible calculate them all. Some of these are increased cloud cover, solar radiance, atmosphereic amsorption, release of water vapor due to warmer oceans, increase in oceanic salininty, release of methane from tundra, increase in consumption of CO2 due to increase plant life, etc... The list of assumptions in most major models is enormous.

We just don't know enough to say one way or another. Hell, you know what? Enact more environmental legislation. Place more restrictions on industries. It would be the best thing for my company since someone invented a database. We would have a boom of analytical work to make sure everyone was in compliance. It would also cost billions to do the level of control and testing that some of these people want. It would criple some industries and municipalities.

As an example, the Texas Commission for Environmental Quality reported 6,000 unauthorized discharges into the Texas water system last year. That is 6,000 out of the hundreds of thousands of industries and municipalities that in monitors for an entire year. Compared to the records of other states that is an extremely low percentage, somewhere in the 1.0~1.5% range. Now the Texas legislature has a law on the books that would foce all industries and all municipalities to test their influent and effluent water sources daily by gas cromatograph. This means 24-hr turn time samples for every industry and municipality in the state daily, which would literally cost billions of dollars. There is not the analytical capacity throughout the entire state to support such demand, thus prices for analysis would increace sharply to cover expansion and equipment costs for labs. This knee jerk reaction to a very small percentage of outfall is rediculous and is exactly the type of thing we must avoid at all cost with the Global Warming scare. It would destroy our economy and cripple our country.

3:44 PM, June 05, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

CC - it is "Rob" not "Bob."

No point in really going back and forth. I'll just say 3 things.

1. The global cooling theory of the 1970s never reached the scientific consensus level that we see today w/respect to global warming. It never even came close.

2. Our methods, satelite technologies, mathematical models, and overall understanding of climatology is far better now than it was 30 years ago. We also have 30 more years of data.

3. You worry about environmental regulation hurting our economy. Just imagine what global warming is going to do if the scientific consensus is correct and no effort is made to stem its impacts.

10:32 PM, June 05, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Sorry for the typo on the name.

1. Actually, it did come very close to the same level. It was reported in Newsweek in 1975 as a scientific fact and repeated throughout the media. It was supported by almost as many studies and institutes at the time respectively. I say respectively, because due to the advent of widespead media, instant information and the internet, today it is much more mainstream a topic. After all, it was the premeire topic at the first earth day.

2. I do not doubt that our methods and technology are more refined and advanced than then, but even the best of them today cannot give a definitive answer to the cause. Like I said, some say GW will trigger and ice age, some mass flooding and super storm systems, some inhabitable equatiorial zones, and some nothing at all. As I said, even today's models use enormous numbers of assumed, theorized or guessed variables that we cannot even hope to know at this point.

3. No. I am worried about knee jerk reaction such as we have seen in Texas destroying, not hurting our enconomy. Some of the proposed Federal and State regulations across the board are unbelievable restrictive and would literally cripple some industries. Some are practically unachievable with current technology. Some states are proposing controlling emmissions down to the part per trillion or part per quadrillion levels. This is practically and technically unachievable at this point and will be for many years to come. Probably not within my lifetime.

Again, like I said I work in the environmental industry and I see firsthand the impact of bad environmetal legislation.

You want to help the environment? Allow oil companies to build new refineries in this country. We have not done so in over thirty years. New refineries being built overseas can refine distillates almost ten time more effeciently and effectively as the aging ones we have in our own country. This means less energy spent in the refining process to produce a cleaner burning and much more efficent fuel. So why are we not building them?

You want to help the environement? Allow the building of nuclear power plants within the United States. Do you realize that 80% of our naval fleet is nuclear based and we have NEVER had a major failure of containment or a nuclear event aboard a naval vessel? Nuclear energy is a cheap, clean and easily managable form of energy, yet we have not built a plant in over 35 years. Why?

Hey man, I recycle, carpool, use flourescant lighting all that giid stuff. I also acknowledge that there must be balance and that we cannot completely cripple ourselves due to panic.

Besides, no matter what the United States does, it will matter very little in the grand scheme of things when developing countries like China and India do nothing. Do you know that China has plans to build almost 1200 coal fired power plants over the next 20 years? So what will it matter if I drive a hybrid? Nothing.

Also, if you are serious about the environment, you would push to end the bogus bulshit tactic of carbon offsets. For a company to pollute all it wants and then pay someone else to do something good in a lame attemtp to offest their guilt is crap.

12:29 AM, June 06, 2007  
Blogger Mike's America said...

Poor Rob... Still attacking anyone as not scientist enough if they disagree with him.

Well I've got my own environmental credentials, which I'm sure exceed those of Rob.

And I can say with authority that lying about the science and scientists by global warming zealots in unconscionable.

But then folks like Rob never did care about a conscience in the discussion of public policy. It gets in the way of the pursuit of power which is what this is all about.

12:34 AM, June 06, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

I have an engineering degree undergrad. My undergrad thesis examined groundwater contamination and designed a water trap remediation system that was implemented at a U.S. military facility on the East Coast. I interned my four years in college with an environmental contractor. Then, after graduation I spent the first 3 years of my professional career working as an EPA contractor. I was 40-hour OSHA trained, got the 8-hour environmental supervisor training. For 3 years I worked in the field and managed teams at various hazardous waste sites around the country. I also conducted environmental audits at Fortune 500 company sites around the country for EPA. Oh yeah, and I passed my CHMM and EIT exams.

I got out of the field when I earned a scholarship to get my MBA and subsequently my Ph.D. in business administration.

Having a political appointment working as a paper pusher at EPA is nothing like working in the field. Have you ever worked in a tyvek suit with a full-face respirator and/or supplied air in 105 degree weather? Have you worked on a hazardous waste site in which your health and even your life is on the line? I have.

But none of that really matters. The fact is that I can read and understand academic journals which publish atmospheric and climatological papers. I can also read and understand what the National Academy of Sciences, NASA, NOAA, EPA, the IPCC, and other governmental agencies have now concluded about global warming and the role of human activity to the problem.

I cannot wait to hear about how you broke a nail or got a paper cut while reading in your air conditioned office at EPA headquarters.

Mike, please explain to me what you think I am lying about. Also, what power do you think I am pursuing? Please be specific. You sound like you are a bit paranoid.

1:18 AM, June 06, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Who said anything about the EPA? Not me. I work in Texas for an independently owned environmental analysis laboratory. We are a full service lab including organic and inorganic analysis, waste water plant management, field collection services and envrionmental consulting.

While it is not what I do normally, yes, I have been in the field collecting waste water samples, sludge, etc. Haven't ever had to don a Tyvek HazMat yet and I hope not to. That is what we have field techs for. :)

If you have all this training and experience, then you should be able to understand that while regulations and conservation are appropriate, extreme reactionary measures such as the one I highlighted in Texas or requirements of testing to part per trillion or part per quardrillion are simply not possible.

11:31 AM, June 06, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Forgot air analysis...

11:32 AM, June 06, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

CC - I was simply responding to Mike. You may or may not be aware, but his environmental experience consists of being a paper pusher political appointee to the EPA. He thought (incorrectly as usual), that I had no environmental experience and I called him on it.

Your comment about field techs is well taken. I saw the good folks I worked with, who had been in the field for years. Many of them were not in the greatest health. You do the job long enough and you will be exposed to some nasty stuff. Fortunately, I was able to take advantage of other opportunities.

Finally, I have never advocated for "extreme reactionary measures." The fact that you have bad regs in Texas is largely irrelevant to the overall problem. I think economic solutions such as trading/purchasing pollution credits can be part of the solution. If we just quit throwing away $10B/month in Iraq, we could use some of that money to fund alternate (clean) energy and environmental protection technologies that will make a difference. Regulation also has its place in the comprehensive solution.

9:31 AM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Well thankfully we don't have those bad regs yet. They are still in commitee in our legislature and meeting fierce opposition by industries, labs and municipalities.

I agree that regulation has its place in a comprehensive solution if an only if it is justifiable and reasonably achievable.

I strongly disagree with you on the carbon offset programs, most of them have been shown to be ineffective at best and fradulent at worst. It also gives people a means of deflecting responsibility for their own actions by environmental tithing. No, if you want to be environmentaly responsible then do so. Do not pay someone else to do it for you and claim you are an environmental champion while you continue to consume and pollute as much as you want. It is the height of hypocracy.

Oh, and Iraq has nothing to do with this discussion. Trying to interject controversial politics in to an already charged issue is nonsensical and destructive to the process. We did not invest that money in clean renewable energy before we were in Iraq, what make you think that will change one we have completed our mission there? The private sector is quite capable of accopmlishing this on its own and we have seen major improvements in just the last few years.

Like I said, you want to make an immediate and overarching impact? Then allow the construction of nuclear power plants, which are a cheap, clean source of energy, and the construction of new modern refineries, which pollute less, consume less energy in their processes and produce a cleaner burning, more efficent fuel.

Those should be two of our first steps. Once we have enough nuclear power, we can then begin closing some of the hydrocarbon fueled power production facilities.

Also, end the restrictions on wind farms and stop letting pissed off land owners sue companies for building alternative energy plants near their communities. You can have alternative energy, or you can have a pristine view of the southern coast. You may not be able to have both.

Finally, we need to launch hydroelectric projects in areas where there are ample rivers available. Not only does this create a clean, renewable and fairly inexpensive energy source, it also produces additional flood control and water sheds for areas. When was the last hydroelectric dam constructed. It has been almost as long as the last nuclear plant.

12:54 PM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

I think we could agree on many of your proposed solutions. I am not as supportive of nuclear energy as you are because of the long-term waste storage issues.

Why do you suppose the all-powerful market has not produced any new refineries in decades? In my opinion, that is a place where government needs to step in.

You may not support significant increases in government funding for energy alternative research, but the fact is that the governments of Japan, China, Korea, and many European nations are doing so. The companies and technologies that emerge will create jobs and wealth. If U.S. companies have to license those technologies from foreign entities it is far worse for us as a nation. This is both an economic and national security issue, and it deserves the attention of the federal government (as well as federal funding).

1:35 PM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

The market has not produced refineries in three decades because it requires federal approval to do so. Every request for approval has been denied since 1972.

I agree that there SHOULD be federal incintives to develope new forms of energy, I however doubt that there WOULD be. Our governmet will not give money to those companies who can do this research the best, big oil and energy, when they are threatening to tax them and penalize them at every turn. Exxon-Mobil already has an enormous division engaged in research and development of ehtanol and bio-deisel. They WANT to be the leaders in this type of fuel sources so that when the eventual decline of fossil fuel does occur, they will be at the fore front of these fule sources.

What we need to do right now is offer tax incentives for big oil and big energy to do this sort of research. These companies will gladly take the tax incentive and gladly do the research so that they will be the premier companies in those fields of energy. I would not at all be opposed to additional federal funding in these areas, but the first thing we need to do is stop hindering deployment of existing technologies and stop attacking the very companies who could themselves fund massive amounts of this research. Use the free market to do what it was intended to do, innovate and develop.

2:44 PM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

Hilarious, you want to give tax incentives to Exxon-Mobil. They earned a profit of almost $40 BILLION AFTER TAX last year (that is profit, not revenue).

You really believe that the world's most profitable company would then use a $5-$10 billion tax incentive to find an alternative to the highly profitable product that they sell.

Dream on.

2:54 PM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Concerned Citizen said...

Yes, I do. It is simple economics. They will jump at the tax incentive, simply because that is what any capitalist would do. That tax incitive is conditional upon the deliverable research.

Secondly, they are already doing such research. Exxon-Mobil presented Congres with a huge document relating to the methods of ethanol extraction last year and has begun partial conversion of two refineries to include ethanol production and integration into fuel sources. The have current ongoing reasearch teams into the fields of ethanol, bio-diesel, hydrogen conversion and CNG, plus several experimental areas of renewable energy.

You have to think like a businessman. If the government tells you that you can shelter from taxes any profits that are invested into R & D of clean energy, which then gives you the ability to patent any developed process, techniques or technology in that field, yeah, they will go for it.

These companies know that we are actively seeking ways to reduce our depenence on petroleum based fuels. They WANT to be the companies that are still able to refine, manufacture and still provide new fuel sources. They are already doing this research of their own accord just for that very purpose. They will jump at the chance to shelter invested profits in R & D projects which will eventually gove them the edge in a new market. Ain't captialism great?

3:49 PM, June 07, 2007  
Blogger Rob said...

Rest assured that transformational innovation which brings about new energy sources and environmental technologies will not come from Big Oil. They have a vested interest in stifling innovation that takes away from oil profits. They will not be on the cutting edge of new technologies whenever those technologies come to the marketplace.

Every year, the list of the Fortune 500 companies changes and between 35-50 companies are replaced. Over the last 50 years, more than 80 percent of the list has changed. The reason is that structural inertia prevents the top grossing organizations to change, and new entrepreneurial ventures come to market and change the world as we know it. These smaller, newer firms grow on the basis of their innovations and replace older firms as the top grossing firms.

The great new technologies of tomorrow - the ones that completely revolutionize the world - will come from entrepreneurs who develop their ideas outside of the establishment. I can tell you that this is a virtual certainty, and is based on decades of organization theory research.

9:51 PM, June 07, 2007  
Anonymous G. Smith said...

Ok let me get this straight .. You don't believe in Global Climate Change because of lack of solid evidence .. You Do Believe in God because of ... what, the solid evidence?? My point is I don't know and neiher do you. Let's just consider what we do know. It is obvious that if the planet is experiencing some climate changes it may or may not be serious. I contend that if those of us who do believe our greenhouse gas polution is a danger to everyone then what is the harm in trying to make some changes. If we are wrong what have we done but spent some money to create some jobs and maybe even clean up the environment. How can that not be a good thing. On the other hand what if those of you who don't subscribe to this belief are wrong and we just ignore it ? But hey! what do I know ?

9:45 AM, June 11, 2007  
Anonymous mudkitty said...

gs - are you asking for logic from rightwingers and republicans; people who consider themselves to be conservatives, but are anything but.

You and I are more conservative than then KT and the folks here.

1:32 PM, June 11, 2007  
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